5w40 statt 10w40: Warum? Hydrostößelklackern

[Druckluftschrauber51813]

Hallo zusammen!

Habe nun schon einiges hier gelesen. Will auch keinen neuen Ölthread aufmachen. Aber folgendes:

Mein m111.940 (der 200er) klackert beim Kaltstart. Ich muss einen Kilometer fahren, bis es weg ist. Eine Werkstatt meinte schon, dass das die Hydrostößel sind. Die Empfehlung: Das kann noch etwas warten und ich kann für die 16 Hydros sparen.

Ich habe den Wagen im September gekauft und bin auch sehr zufrieden. Vor allem mit dem Verbrauch. Blue efficiency muss bei Mercedes doch ein alter Hut sein.
Das einzige was mich stört, ist der rauhe Kaltstart im Winter. Das ist auch die einzige Phase, in der mein Wagen viel verbraucht. Daher wollte ich schon seit ich den Wagen habe auf 5W40 umstellen, da ein Bekannter im m111.960 auch immer 5w40 drin hatte und der Wagen erst bei Kilometerstand 800000 nach Afrika in den Ruhestand geschickt wurde. Daher also das flüssigere Öl.

Meine Werkstatt meint: bei 190000km sollte man eher auf dickeres Öl umstellen, damit ich mit dem vollsynthetischen 5W40 nicht irgendwelche Dichtungen vom "den Motor zusammenhaltenden Ölschlamm befreie". Ich denke aber, dass das 5W40 doch etwas schneller in den Hydros ankommen sollte? Das sagte man mir auch beim Motorinstandsetzer: "Das könnte man ja erstmal versuchen..."

Da also die eine Werkstatt "Hüüüüh..." und die andere "hotttt..." sagt, dachte ich ich frag mal, ob jemand schon mal mit einem m111 von 10W40 auf 5W40 umgestiegen ist und ob die Zylinderkopfdichtung danach fällig war, oder die Hydrostößel noch mehr geklackert haben.

Vielen Dank schonmal und viele Grüße!

[Multimeter39348]

Hello,

I know very little of German, so I'll write in English, and I hope that you will not mind because of that.

I have Mercedes W124 200E-16 with M111.940 engine for a two years. When I bought it, it had about 450000km, so I had to replace timing chain and head gasket. After that, engine sounded excellent for about 10000km. Then it started to knock at coldstart and when it gets warm for about 2 minutes, it runs silently. My mechanic told me that the problem is with hydraulic lifters and that it isn't such a problem. So, I run it like that for another 40000km and decided to replace hydrolifters, because it annoyed me very much. I replaced it with brand new INA hydrolifters, but the problem remained. You can here engine sound at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27waoaXKMk4

I didn't replace chain tightener and sliders, so I assume that the problem could be with chain tightener.

What do you think?

Aleksandar

[Druckluftschrauber51813]

Hello!

English is no Problem! That Sounds exactly like Mine! You Should Check the chain tightener first. Thats what i did. The Engine Sound at cold Starts was much smoother. I Changed the whole Thing, but it showed, that only the Spring Needed replacement. It was much shorter than the New One and Not so strong anymore. Putting everything together was a Hard Job for me.

As the chain tightener Works with Oil pressure, erything Sounds Good, when the Thick 10w40 Oil is warm enough to fill it.
At cold Starts, the Spring inside it Makes sure, the chain tension is High enough.
You Might be lucky, if you only Need this Little Spring. It Costs about 1,80 € at any Mercedes Dealer in Germany. And it is an original spare Part.

If you repair the chain tightener, you Should know, the chain tightener Needs to be dismantled First and then rebuild from the rear.

I Hope i could help. Another question: you Said, you already Changed the Hydraulic lifters: and everything was quiet. Can you Tell if that is due to the Hydraulic lifters, or was ist Because of Changing the chain?

What motoroil do you use?
Best wishes, max

[Druckluftschrauber51813]

Forget my last question: i read your Article again.....;-)

[Druckluftschrauber51813]

Tell us please, when you solved the Problem, Because i think about replacing the hydrolifters as well and i am very annoyed, Because of the 16 vents. So the lifters are 2 Times the Price of the ones of the Old Engines:-(

And: you Should have a close Look at the ( i don't know if i know the right English Word for it) cable tree of your Engine. It likes to destroy the Little computer? Which Drives the Engine. It Costs over 2000€..... New....

[Peanut65]

Zitat:

Original geschrieben von max6627

...
...
And: you Should have a close Look at the ( i don't know if i know the right English Word for it) cable tree of your Engine. It likes to destroy the Little computer? Which Drives the Engine. It Costs over 2000€..... New....

Cable tree -> wiring harness (for engine control)

Little computer -> ECM or ECU

😉

[Druckluftschrauber51813]

Thanks a lot!

Gibts da n wörterbuch für so fachbegriffe? Hab ich mich schon öfters gefragt. Wenn ich nicht 2 Bier getrunken hätte, hätte ich mir eh überlegt, ob ich da mal draufloskraxele und auf englisch von meinen Kettenspannererfahrungen berichte.....

Also nochmal: Danke for Translating:-)

[3litercoupè]

moin

i think that is an sound from your chain...and sliders/runners....

so check and replace chain...sliders/runners...and chaintensioner/tightener

i think there is the bug,....

[Multimeter39348]

Hello,

Thanks for helping me to solve this issue with coldstart knocking.

Regarding to wiring harness, I replaced it when I built in LPG system, because it was in bad condition. I bought used wiring harness at junkyard which was in Mercedes C200. So far so good.

At the time when I changed head gasket because of oil leaking, I also replaced timing chain. Mechanic said that the chain tightener and sliders were in good condition and there was no need to change it. I had to change chain because it was stretched and timing was delayed for 11 degrees. Chain was scratching periodically (not knocking) regardless of temperature of engine. After chain replacement all was good. There was no problem at coldstart.

But after about 10000km or more, I'm not sure, I noticed occasional knocking at coldstart. I was told that it is due to hydrolifters, for sure. Few days ago, I decided to change hydrolifters because it became very annoying. After hydrolifters replacement, it is little better, engine runs smoother when it is warm, but at coldstart for about 2-5 minutes it knocks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27waoaXKMk4

During hydrolifters replacement, mechanic checked if the chain was stretched. Timing is delayed only for 1 degree which is very good. I think that chain sliders are good because when engine gets warm, there is no bad sound from it even if I press and release gas pedal, engine runs very smooth.

I plan to change chain tightener in week or two, so I'll inform you after that.

Price information:

head gasket 53euros
inlet gasket 5euros
outlet gasket 16euros
cover gasket 21euros
belt 19euros
several o-rings 36euros
head polishing with valve o-rings 140euros
chain 140 euros
replacement 140euros
sum: 570euros

wiring harness 50euros
replacement 20euros
sum: 70euros

INA hydrolifters 16x10e = 160 euros
replacement 60euros
sum: 220euros

Pretty much... :-)

Aleksandar

[Multimeter39348]

To max6627:

I understood that you have to change timing chain. Why? Is it stretched? Did you check timing delay?

Do you replaced chain tightener with original one? What about chain sliders?

To all:

I found here SWAG chain tightener for 40euros, and original one costs 80euros. Which one should I buy?

I think that chain sliders are OK because when engine is hot there is no sound of knocking or scratching. Am I right?

Should I keep using Mobil Super 2000 X1 10W40 semisynthetic oil, or maybe switch to Castrol Magnatec 10W40? I change oil and oil filter (HENGST or MANN) every 10000km, and for that time engine exhausts about 0.5L of oil. Color of used oil is same as color of new oil.

Aleksandar

[Druckluftschrauber51813]

Hi!

I only Changed the chain tightener and Used the original One.

But the Old One looked perfectly well. Only the spring inside it was Shorter than the New One.

And you wrote, your Workshop said, the chain tightener is ok.
So i think, you Should Try Changing the Spring only.

I will Post some pictures later.

Saturday i Changed to 5w40. Everybody Said, this is risky, Because i Might get Oil leckages, but at cold Starts everythink Feels a Bit more smooth.

[Druckluftschrauber51813]

Pictures chain tightener

[Multimeter39348]

Thanks for the pictures.

It would be very helpful if you can measure length of the old spring from tensioner, so I can compare it to mine.

I think that tensioner should work similar to hydrolifter. Hydrolifter also has spring which holds its length even if it is not full of oil. But both, hydrolifter/tensioner, should keep oil pressure even if oil is cold. Because of their wearing, cold oil, which is thiner than warm oil, leaks out. Spring holds their length while oil gets warm and thicker to make pressure inside hydrolifter/tensioner. Spring is not strong enough, so knocking appears. Of course, if the spring is new - than it is stronger and the knocking disapperas.

Even if piston of tensioner looks good, probably clearence between body and piston of tensioner is enough for cold oil leaking.

This is only my opinion.

You can see how bad hydrolifter can be detected (this is not my engine):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k33tqR_F8ko

This is theory of hydrolifter operation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lorANZ1Tptw

Before I replaced hydrolifters I had strange sound at coldstart from time to time, like on this link (first 20sec):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXVS6VPqGzI

Aleksandar

[Druckluftschrauber51813]

I'm Sorry, but i can't measure the length of the spring, but you can purchase it for about 2€ at every Mercedes Dealer. As an original spare part. In Germany it Costs 1,43 plus 16% vat.

I think, your theory is quite right. I'm Not a pro, but i See it the Same Way.

Thanks for the links. I'm worried Because of my hydrolifters as well.....

[Druckluftschrauber51813]

By the Way: the Old Spring was 18 years Old and 180000km inside my Car.

And the New One haf much more power than the Old One.

[Druckluftschrauber51813]

Habe da beim stöbern in der wis noch das rückschlagventil des ölvorratsraum des kettenspanners gefunden.

Sollte der leerlaufen, sprich, das Ventil ist kaputt, würde die Kette doch wahrscheinlich kalt ein wenig schlagen und dann aufhören, sobald alles Öl da ist. Vielleicht Klappern dann auch die Hydros.

Hab die Tage die Ventildeckeldichtung erneuert. Die steuerzeiten stimmen aufs grad. Also ist meine Kette nicht länger geworden. Allerdings konnte ich sie auch ein wenig zwischen den nockenwellenrädern anheben. Ich dachte, die wäre fester.

Habe auch jetzt 5w40 drin und einen wesentlich geschmeidigeren Kaltstart.

Was muss ich von diesem Ventil halten? Hab darüber nicht viel gefunden.

Ich finde, es passt gut zu meinen Symptomen.

Was meint ihr?

Lg, max