Need help for a very complex problem about a used car from the United State

[Spiralschlauch135092]

Hello guys,

I'm sorry that I don't speak German, so I can just use English to describe the situation I have faced.

I got a job in Frankfurt am Main last year, and just have been here for about a year. So I don't know much rules about the vehicle regulations in Germany.

Last month I decided to change my current BMW 5er GT to a sedan, as the handling of the F07 5GT is terrible.

I found an INFINITI Q50 3.7L AWD from a used car dealer tagged a good price. I used to own one before I came to Germany, I really liked it, the VQ37VHR engine was a masterpiece.

This car was not made for EU market, actually it's made for the US market, and in addition, it's imported from the US in 2014 by Volkswagen-AG for use as a test car! This car has been de-registered in 2017 by VW-AG in Wolfsburg.

On the Registration Certificate part II, it shows 'V.7: errchnet. Erprobungsfahrzeug der VW-AG gem. Par. 19(6) StVZO; bei Halterwechsel Par. 21 StVZO erforderlich'. The dealer said eventhough this was a test car from VW-AG, it still can be registered as a private car for public road driving, only some paperwork need to be done.

And the dealer said because of the COVID-19 reason, he did not have enough staff to do those paperwork within a month or two. I asked him if it was possible for me to do it by myself, he said yes, it was just a few registration paperwork and anyone could get it done, it's just a matter of time.

Then I signed the contract, paid for the car and bring it home with a trailer, and the nightmare began.

I took this car to the TUEV station, asking them to perform a HU test for it, but the staff from TUEV station said they could not do it, because the certificated technical information of this car is needed.

But INFINITI only offers 2.2d, 2.0T, 3.5 Hybrid and 3.0T with Q50 in EU, the any model with 3.7L naturally aspirated engine had never been introduced into EU market. As a result, there could not be COC document for this car, and information like the emission class and noise level were missing.

I did some research about the imported cars on the Internet, then I realised that, a test called 'Vollabnahme gemäß §21 Straßenverkehrs-Zulassungs-Ordnung (StVZO)' must be done if the COC document was not available for the vehicle.

Again, I visited the every TUEV station in and around Frankfurt, ask for the §21-test. They refused me again. Almost every TUEV and Dekra test station asked me to provide a confirmation from VW-AG, proving this car had not been modified during their test procedures. Then I turned to VW, and with no surprise? they told me it was impossible for them to ensure anything for a vehicle which not made by them.

Finally, I found a very kindhearted specialist from TUEV-Nord. He said he could perform the §21-test for me, and checked this car privately for me before taking this car to the test station.

This time, even more problems has been found:

1. The headlamp was DOT/SAE certificated, but not ECE. This will be a problem unless I pay extra money to the TUEV to confirm that the headlamp can meet the requirements of the Germany vehicle regulations.

2. The color of the position lamp from this car is yellow, while it has to be white in Germany. Normally, position lamp can be converted into white by just change the bulb or cover. But on this Q50, the headlamp is a whole and sealed full LED module, with low beam, high beam, AFS system, daylight running light and position lamp all in the component. That means, the only solution is to change the entire left and right headlamp module, which may cost thousands of euros to get this done by INFINITI official dealer.

3. The color of the rear direction lamp (turning light) is red, which has to be in amber/yellow. This is not a big issue, as it's one of the few lights on this car which is not LED but just a bulb and is changeable.

4. The rear fog lamp is missing on this car, as it's made for the US market. I can remove the red reflector plastic piece and install a fog light, but at the same time I have to replace the whole light switch module behind the steering wheel, which may cost me another thousands of euros. Or I can just install an aftermarket external fog light with an individual switch on the dashboard.

5. The electric adjustment of driver's seat stop working. The seat cannot be moved forward or backward. I did some check by myself, and it seems that the seat has been disassemble by some one in the past, and some parts of the seat rail gear are missing. I called INFINITI ask for the price to fix it, and they said they could only replace the whole seat, instead of fixing it, and they will charge 4500 euros for it.

6. The airbag of passenger's seat is malfunctioning. The indicator tagged ‘Passenger airbag off’ should be illuminated, if no one is sitting on the passenger’s seat, but it will never be illuminated regardless there is a person on the passenger’s seat or not, which means the airbag of passenger’s seat is always activated. It’s either a malfunction of the airbag, or the passenger’s seat.

7. The VIN on the vehicle registration certificate is different from the one on the car under the windscreen and the sticker beside the driver’s seat. It JNB1*** under the windscreen and on the sticker, but JNBL on the registration certificate part I and part II. I think the staff from the Vehicle Registration Office in Wolfsburg made a mistake, and I don’t know if this problem matters or not.

8. In the contract, which was written in German and I didn’t read very carefully (it’s my fault), it mentioned like this (translated into English):

(1). It’s a test car from VW, therefore, technical defects cannot be ruled out.

(2). An acceptance according to §21 StVZO must be done, which should be initiated by the buyer himself, all necessary costs should be paid by buyer. Defects as discussed are known.

As listed above, those are the main issues which stop me from registering this car under my name, and I really don’t know how to deal with this situation in Germany, or in other word, what is the best choice for me?

Should I replace everything including the lighting system, seats, etc. and then have it registered? And who should be responsible for paying all of this, me or the dealer? The contract I have signed claimed that I was responsible for the registration, but the conversion

Or should I just give up on it and return the car to the dealer and get the full refund? Do I have enough reason (according to the law) to return it or not?

I've never imagined such a complex situation could happen, and I really need your help.

Appreciated!

[NDLimit]

Zitat:

@Moorteufelchen schrieb am 21. Oktober 2020 um 22:51:14 Uhr:

Hier werden keine weiteren Kommentare genehmigt die nicht in Englisch verfasst sind.

Wer dessen nicht mächtig ist ist dann leider ausgeschlossen.

Moorteufelchen

Moderator

Edit: Ich sollte mich selbst dran halten. Und sorry, sprechen kann ich es aber schreiben ist .......na, ja.

No Kommetare in other language than in the topic required.

I can empfehlen English for runaways.... and I´m very sorry about this off-toppic post :)

Sincerely

The Diver :)

[Manitoba Star]

An alle - Information:

Das gibt es schon länger - We have this forum for quite a while:

https://www.motor-talk.de/forum/motor-talk-in-english-b878.html

Dahin verschieben ? To be shifted there ?

[Spiralschlauch135092]

Zitat:

@stero111 schrieb am 21. Oktober 2020 um 23:01:51 Uhr:

Zitat:

@nfsking2 schrieb am 21. Oktober 2020 um 22:55:27 Uhr:

 

Hi Timbow777,

The contract was written only in German.

It contained 21 StVZO registration because the dealer said he could, but didn't have time to do this test, and it could be done by myself.

In other words: the dealer knew exactly what needs to be done to make the car road legal in Germany and I suspect he exactly knew that its a major issue that the VIN is not consitant, I suspect he tried himself before and failed!. Making the car road legal in Germany , if possible under the discribed circumstances will cost thousands of Euros. Get rid of that car!

He tricked you badly, thats a fact!!!

Return the car and get the refund is an considerable option for me, but I just afraid that if the dealer knew it was difficult or even impossible to register this car in Germany, then there is no chance he will agree returning of the car and giving me refund.

[NDLimit]

Zitat:

@nfsking2 schrieb am 21. Oktober 2020 um 23:03:11 Uhr:

Zitat:

@NDLimit schrieb am 21. Oktober 2020 um 22:51:32 Uhr:

But! One Question. You don´t speak german. How did you find this specific board? :)

I use translate software to translate my question from English into German, then use it as the keyword for searching.

And I have found a topic which talking about the test registration problem in this forum.

Ok.

Hopely, you will find the right answer und a right solution because of your problem.

If is it not a fake, my fingers are crossed for a good solution :)

[Spiralschlauch135092]

Zitat:

@NDLimit schrieb am 21. Oktober 2020 um 23:10:11 Uhr:

Zitat:

@nfsking2 schrieb am 21. Oktober 2020 um 23:03:11 Uhr:

 

I use translate software to translate my question from English into German, then use it as the keyword for searching.

And I have found a topic which talking about the test registration problem in this forum.

Ok.

Hopely, you will find the right answer und a right solution because of your problem.

If is it not a fake, my fingers are crossed for a good solution :)

Thanks!

[NDLimit]

Zitat:

@nfsking2 schrieb am 21. Oktober 2020 um 23:09:52 Uhr:

Zitat:

@stero111 schrieb am 21. Oktober 2020 um 23:01:51 Uhr:

 

In other words: the dealer knew exactly what needs to be done to make the car road legal in Germany and I suspect he exactly knew that its a major issue that the VIN is not consitant, I suspect he tried himself before and failed!. Making the car road legal in Germany , if possible under the discribed circumstances will cost thousands of Euros. Get rid of that car!

He tricked you badly, thats a fact!!!

Return the car and get the refund is an considerable option for me, but I just afraid that if the dealer knew it was difficult or even impossible to register this car in Germany, then there is no chance he will agree returning of the car and giving me refund.

Well, sometimes this is the business of a used-car-seller :(

I didn´t search, but there was one board which says, that VW bought back some test cars in germany

And sorry for my broken english

[Spiralschlauch135092]

Zitat:

@NDLimit schrieb am 21. Oktober 2020 um 23:15:35 Uhr:

Zitat:

@nfsking2 schrieb am 21. Oktober 2020 um 23:09:52 Uhr:

 

Return the car and get the refund is an considerable option for me, but I just afraid that if the dealer knew it was difficult or even impossible to register this car in Germany, then there is no chance he will agree returning of the car and giving me refund.

Well, sometimes this is the business of a used-car-seller :(

I didn´t search, but ther was one board which says, that VW bought back some test cars in germany

And sorry for my broken english

I've also read this topic about VW bought back the test car in Germany, but VW only took back the car made by them, so I don't think VW will buy this INFINITI back.

And, by the way, your English is good enough for me to understand:p

[NDLimit]

Zitat:

@nfsking2 schrieb am 21. Oktober 2020 um 23:18:53 Uhr:

Zitat:

@NDLimit schrieb am 21. Oktober 2020 um 23:15:35 Uhr:

 

Well, sometimes this is the business of a used-car-seller :(

I didn´t search, but ther was one board which says, that VW bought back some test cars in germany

And sorry for my broken english

I've also read this topic about VW bought back the test car in Germany, but VW only took back the car made by them, so I don't think VW will buy this INFINITI back.

And, by the way, your English is good enough for me to understand:p

Thanks :)

[Ratoncita]

There are several "infiniti forums" (< google search), and I even found a specialized one.

Have you tried them already?

There may be someone with a similar experience... ;)

You can also try to contact Nissan in order to get the specs for your car (> VIN).

Equipped with those documents another approach at the TUEV may help to get a §21 certification.

Wishing you luck!

(You'll need it.)

Ciao

Ratoncita

[Spiralschlauch135092]

Zitat:

@Ratoncita schrieb am 22. Oktober 2020 um 09:21:25 Uhr:

There are several "infiniti forums" (< google search), and I even found a specialized one.

Have you tried them already?

There may be someone with a similar experience... ;)

You can also try to contact Nissan in order to get the specs for your car (> VIN).

Equipped with those documents another approach at the TUEV may help to get a §21 certification.

Wishing you luck!

(You'll need it.)

Ciao

Ratoncita

Ordering the parts from INFINITI/NISSAN seems to be the only choice for me right now. I've already contact INFINITI, and the price could be up to 5000 euros for the headlamp including the installation.

[Ratoncita]

Zitat:

@nfsking2 schrieb am 22. Oktober 2020 um 10:18:16 Uhr

Ordering the parts from INFINITI/NISSAN seems to be the only choice for me right now. I've already contact INFINITI, and the price could be up to 5000 euros for the headlamp including the installation.

Yes, I know.

The lamps have to be electronically adapted to the car's system, this could even end in a no go, unless wiring harnesses are changed.

No easy solution, unfortunately.

Ciao

Ratoncita

[Ostelch]

I'm sorry. You didn't buy a car, you bought a bottomless barrel! Stop throwing money in there! It is certainly not impossible to convert a car that was not built according to European regulations so that it can be registered in Germany. But it is usually completely uneconomical. Whether this car can ever be registered is in the stars because of its use as a test car at VW. Nobody knows what was done with the car and what was changed on it. In addition, once you have found other defects that need to be repaired.

IMHO: The dealer cheated you. He bought the car very cheaply because it actually has to go to the scrap yard (hopefully only for economic reasons). He took advantage of the fact that you don't speak German and don't understand what kind of problem he is selling you.

Now you don't need exchange parts or a good garage, but a good lawyer who will take care of the rescission of the contract. In Frankfurt it should be no problem to find a qualified German lawyer who speaks English and can help you. Call the Frankfurt bar association (Rechtsanwaltskammer Frankfurt) and ask there. Or call your consulate. They usually have lists of English speaking lawyers there.

Even if it is hard to accept: You are flogging dead horse. Stop it now! Good Luck!

 

[Tecci6N]

The non-matching VINs will always be an issue. Maybe that is your specific reason to take the car back to the dealer. Even the paragraph stating „§21 StVZO has to be done on buyers expenses“ implies, that there is the possibilty you can successfully do so. Contact your dealer, ask for the matching title for your car or the matching car for your title. Otherwise you have to revoke the contract.

[oawqnroz]

Zitat:

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I'm sorry that I don't speak German, so I can just use English to describe the situation I have faced.

I got a job in Frankfurt am Main last year, and just have been here for about a year. So I don't know much rules about the vehicle regulations in Germany.

Last month I decided to change my current BMW 5er GT to a sedan, as the handling of the F07 5GT is terrible.

I found an INFINITI Q50 3.7L AWD from a used car dealer tagged a good price. I used to own one before I came to Germany, I really liked it, the VQ37VHR engine was a masterpiece.

 

On the Registration Certificate part II, it shows 'V.7: errchnet. Erprobungsfahrzeug der VW-AG gem. Par. 19(6) StVZO; bei Halterwechsel Par. 21 StVZO erforderlich'. The dealer said eventhough this was a test car from VW-AG, it still can be registered as a private car for public road driving, only some paperwork need to be done.

And the dealer said because of the COVID-19 reason, he did not have enough staff to do those paperwork within a month or two. I asked him if it was possible for me to do it by myself, he said yes, it was just a few registration paperwork and anyone could get it done, it's just a matter of time.

Then I signed the contract, paid for the car and bring it home with a trailer, and the nightmare began.

I took this car to the TUEV station, asking them to perform a HU test for it, but the staff from TUEV station said they could not do it, because the certificated technical information of this car is needed.

But INFINITI only offers 2.2d, 2.0T, 3.5 Hybrid and 3.0T with Q50 in EU, the any model with 3.7L naturally aspirated engine had never been introduced into EU market. As a result, there could not be COC document for this car, and information like the emission class and noise level were missing.

I did some research about the imported cars on the Internet, then I realised that, a test called 'Vollabnahme gemäß §21 Straßenverkehrs-Zulassungs-Ordnung (StVZO)' must be done if the COC document was not available for the vehicle.

Again, I visited the every TUEV station in and around Frankfurt, ask for the §21-test. They refused me again. Almost every TUEV and Dekra test station asked me to provide a confirmation from VW-AG, proving this car had not been modified during their test procedures. Then I turned to VW, and with no surprise? they told me it was impossible for them to ensure anything for a vehicle which not made by them.

Finally, I found a very kindhearted specialist from TUEV-Nord. He said he could perform the §21-test for me, and checked this car privately for me before taking this car to the test station.

This time, even more problems has been found:

1. The headlamp was DOT/SAE certificated, but not ECE. This will be a problem unless I pay extra money to the TUEV to confirm that the headlamp can meet the requirements of the Germany vehicle regulations.

2. The color of the position lamp from this car is yellow, while it has to be white in Germany. Normally, position lamp can be converted into white by just change the bulb or cover. But on this Q50, the headlamp is a whole and sealed full LED module, with low beam, high beam, AFS system, daylight running light and position lamp all in the component. That means, the only solution is to change the entire left and right headlamp module, which may cost thousands of euros to get this done by INFINITI official dealer.

3. The color of the rear direction lamp (turning light) is red, which has to be in amber/yellow. This is not a big issue, as it's one of the few lights on this car which is not LED but just a bulb and is changeable.

4. The rear fog lamp is missing on this car, as it's made for the US market. I can remove the red reflector plastic piece and install a fog light, but at the same time I have to replace the whole light switch module behind the steering wheel, which may cost me another thousands of euros. Or I can just install an aftermarket external fog light with an individual switch on the dashboard.

5. The electric adjustment of driver's seat stop working. The seat cannot be moved forward or backward. I did some check by myself, and it seems that the seat has been disassemble by some one in the past, and some parts of the seat rail gear are missing. I called INFINITI ask for the price to fix it, and they said they could only replace the whole seat, instead of fixing it, and they will charge 4500 euros for it.

6. The airbag of passenger's seat is malfunctioning. The indicator tagged ‘Passenger airbag off’ should be illuminated, if no one is sitting on the passenger’s seat, but it will never be illuminated regardless there is a person on the passenger’s seat or not, which means the airbag of passenger’s seat is always activated. It’s either a malfunction of the airbag, or the passenger’s seat.

7. The VIN on the vehicle registration certificate is different from the one on the car under the windscreen and the sticker beside the driver’s seat. It JNB1*** under the windscreen and on the sticker, but JNBL on the registration certificate part I and part II. I think the staff from the Vehicle Registration Office in Wolfsburg made a mistake, and I don’t know if this problem matters or not.

8. In the contract, which was written in German and I didn’t read very carefully (it’s my fault), it mentioned like this (translated into English):

(1). It’s a test car from VW, therefore, technical defects cannot be ruled out.

(2). An acceptance according to §21 StVZO must be done, which should be initiated by the buyer himself, all necessary costs should be paid by buyer. Defects as discussed are known.

As listed above, those are the main issues which stop me from registering this car under my name, and I really don’t know how to deal with this situation in Germany, or in other word, what is the best choice for me?

Should I replace everything including the lighting system, seats, etc. and then have it registered? And who should be responsible for paying all of this, me or the dealer? The contract I have signed claimed that I was responsible for the registration, but the conversion

Or should I just give up on it and return the car to the dealer and get the full refund? Do I have enough reason (according to the law) to return it or not?

I've never imagined such a complex situation could happen, and I really need your help.

Appreciated!

This car was not made for EU market, actually it's made for the US market, and in addition, it's imported from the US in 2014 by Volkswagen-AG for use as a test car! This car has been de-registered in 2017 by VW-AG in Wolfsburg.